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[personal profile] fiberaddict
H, you're right - it's PETER, not Paul. Sorry - my brain is swiss cheese at the moment. :sigh:

However, the main point I was trying to make is still valid: Paul's writings are given too much weight by the modern church. Every church I've ever been to has said that Christians NEED to read Romans, because that IS the, no.

The most important thing a Believer can EVER read is the Torah.

Let me ask you something (you in general, not you individually): Who is God? Does He change?

No. God is, and was, and will be, and He is NEVER-changing. Got that? NEVER. So...why do Christians think that they've replaced the Jews as God's chosen people? (And they DO.) Most of them have even tossed the OT out, because Jesus changed everything.

No, He didn't. IF you're familiar with Torah, you KNOW this. You know exactly what He did, and Why. Without that foundation, you really don't KNOW Yeshua and/or God. Seriously. It's why the Jewish leaders were so against Yeshua's teachings - they knew EXACTLY what he was talking about, and what it would mean to their power.

Let me take you back to basics: Before Yeshua, everybody was on a "purity ladder". See, you have to be ritually pure to have any sort of contact with God - His holiness demands it. That's what the sacrificial system is all about - moving people up the rungs of the purity ladder so that they could maintain that connection with God. Women had it doubly hard - for 1 week out of every 4 they were knocked off the ladder thru no fault of their own. :shrug: Didn't say I like it, but there it is...and it's ALL spelled out in Leviticus. There were more than just sin offerings - some were just because you thought that maybe you'd done something wrong, but weren't sure what, so you'd go to the Priests and do a sacrifice to make sure you were covered. A lot of innocent animals died back then - because to be cut off from God was (and IS) a major problem.

Oh, and the "all sin is equal in the eyes of God" crap the church tosses out? Total BS. If all sin is equal, why were there levels of sacrificial animals? And why did some sin cost 2 doves while other sin cost a bull? Sin is sin, but it's not equal....and if you had the knowledge that Paul assumed you'd have, you'd KNOW this. :sigh:

Another question: What is the significance of the water that poured out of Messiah's side? It's pretty need both living water AND blood to cover sin.

Look, I'm not a Paul-hater, but I HATE that the emphasis has been moved from Torah, where it belongs, to personal letters that weren't meant to be elevated to Holy.

I'm still thinking on all this, but the bottom line is the same. Tanakh is Scripture. The NT is basically commentary on how to LIVE Torah in the current age. Christ Himself said Torah still stood - and why would anyone argue with Him?

Date: 2014-07-09 03:13 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Let us play! :) You know I am familiar with the OT, although not the scholar that you are. And that I attend good churches that have taught the reasons for the spear in His side.

The atoning blood of Christ permanently cleansed us and made us holy. The blood of innocent animals couldn't do the job properly, which was why so many had to die - starting with Adam and Eve being covered with fur rather than leaves.

Therefore, we have the gift of permanent ascribed holiness. Done. "It is finished". And so, we have to figure out what to do now... we don't have to worry about killing things, but we do have to obey. How do we bless the Lord with our obedience-in-love?

The OT and NT are fairly cohesive in this - the NT frees us from the parts of the law concerned with cleansing from sin (since that's done) and has us concerned with the next level of obedience/service. "Love thy neighbor" is the core of that.

For me, personally, I feel very blessed to not be a Catholic... because they are concerned with their own salvation, since part of that is works/staying clean. I *want* to stay clean, because when I sin, I pull myself apart from the Holy Spirit and grieve Him... but I don't lose my place in Heaven, and I am no less holy, because *I* don't have anything to do with my holiness.

What then should I do with that freedom? I should serve. I should get out there and love people with the love of Christ. I should tell them the Good News - that they can be free of the burden of spending their lives atoning for what has been atoned for. I should "rejoice" and "Pray without ceasing" and make myself a conduit for His love.

I *like* the Pauline epistles, they're very helpful for me. But the more time I spend in the OT, the more cohesive the whole of Scripture (OT/NT, poetry, history, prophecy) is. God's heart is revealed in His Word - and that's all of it. I don't want to add to it, I don't want to take away from it. Should we all get to Heaven and Jesus laughs at my ignorance, that's cool. I'm *sure* He's going to laugh at some of the things I say and do and believe - but that's okay. In the meantime, I'm accountable to Him - to show His light to a pitch-black world.

And the Pauline epistles? They tell me how to do that. (As does Proverbs, and Peter, and John... and everything else).



Date: 2014-07-09 05:31 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
hey girl - Banjo says HI!
now I wouldn't say that the animal sacrifices were not good enough - but rather that the Almighty knew the temple would not stand - they religious systems would fail and the people would be left with no way to redeem themselves. They worked just fine when the world was small, but once Rome had her hands everywhere...we had a huge problem.

I am so happy V is letting us hang out on her porch and hash this out. I miss you ladies :)
I have a bit more on this but my phone is awkward to compose large messages on. :P - ali

Re: ali

Date: 2014-07-09 06:50 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
One more point and then we are off to the dentist...
I do not know where the idea of permanently holy came from...
I was raised catholic and no worse for the wear as far as I can tell. XP
Of course as soon as I read the book all the way through I decided that pot of soup wasn't for me! And when I was a calvary chapel girl - I loved it there for a season (7 years...) but the place I attended was a very milk fed church and once I cut my molars I was a bit done with milk and gerber. Some people need it - and I don't begrudge them that - but it wasn't for me any more. and I realize some CC are very cool. but I was just done with the one I was at.

Re: -ali

Date: 2014-07-09 09:04 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
-sends ear scritches to Banjo- Miss you and yours, dearie!

Animal sacrifices were good enough... but not forever. The animals were referring to the sacrifice of Jesus. A memorial in advance. And you were forever having to kill more animals - they were good for one sin, not multiple offenses. Jesus' blood doesn't wear off - if it did, He'd have to die again. He doesn't, and we know that we all fall into sin occasionally... so His blood is a permanent atonement.

Permanently holy: Well how can we not be permanently holy if we are (present tense) 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, [h]he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. and :21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

If we *are* new creatures because of Christ's atoning blood... we are.

Wrote you a post over at HHH about how we *should* be using our freedom.

I <3 my CC. :) Pastor Mike is good people, it's a *good* place to be.



Date: 2014-07-10 02:27 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hey H -
I read the post and I see that is where you are at. And since I know you personally I know you are good peoples and if you say people are good people I know they are good peoples - ya know? lol
But here is the thing about it. The reason I have such an issue with this topic is my husband (mostly) and others - (partly)take the type of things you are saying and read it it as - I have an automatic A++ in the class called life on earth - no need to study! I can't change my level of holiness through anything I do on my own anyhow.
And so many people. Stop. Right. There.
I think of it more as a class I am taking because I want to learn, do, apply, understand, appreciate. If I took guitar lessons - would I be happy that I passed a class? I can read a music staff? I can remember the difference between an A chord and a C? Or would I be happy if I could pick up a guitar and play a song? I am here to play.
I understand that you personally DO study and you are on it and working out there nurturing people, showing people a servant's heart. Spreading the love.
And I know I do not need to work harder or do more - but I want to! I want to learn and grow. It is not a have to - it is a want to. And the way I understand the blood of Yeshua is what seals your marriage certificate - getting married is not the goal - it is just the beginning of a lifetime of learning how to love, how to accept your lover's advances, how to delight and honor your lover, how to communicate your fears, your hopes, how to apologize - all of that. ya know?

So in a sense you are right in that nothing you can do would make you "more married" but being more married is not the goal.
I love this topic. <3

Re: ~ali

Date: 2014-07-10 04:07 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I answered this over at HHH.. :) But I'll paste here. BTW you're welcome to "blog in my comment section", that's always the best part IMO. Me casa es su casa - both of you.


You know, I agree with everything you said here. Everything. I serve from love, I obey from love – but isn’t that what He told us to do?

What I see too many folks doing is substituting law for love – pick your law, any law. “If I do this, I’m cool”. The flip side of that is “I reallly messed up and I’m worthless forever” – which is the very opposite of the grace we’ve been given. (And I know you know that – but you’ve seen it too). We allow rules or self-hatred to chain us down and then we *don’t* serve – either because we’re proud (or OCD) about our clean hands – or because we don’t think we’re good enough. So one less pair of hands working, one less voice singing the Lord’s praises – one more person making other people sour on Christianity instead of seeing how transformative it is. It’s the Pharisees and the dill seed – Jesus was happy that they tithed it… but they went OCD on mint leaves and left the heart of the tithe, the heart of charity, completely out in the dust. And He wasn’t happy about *that* at all.

We are free … for a purpose. Why not fly high? Well, you fly… :)


Date: 2014-07-09 03:33 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
This guy made such a good point - when Paul was writing those first letters - first off there was NO new testament. Paul was mostly dealing with a bunch of people that had no idea what they were doing - gentiles and greeks were kind of used to checking out the next best new god on the scene - much like people embrace new-age stuff now(or in the 80's - gosh that was bad stuff back then!) - right?
Not only was idol worship through the Greek and Roman temples common - but often REQUIRED.
So he points out that the people who are just converting to Christianity you know they just started those folks with four rules - they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. why? Because as they grow they will learn.

He made an example of this family bringing home a little baby and giving it a lecture on the law every night. why would a family do that? in the beginning you just love them and keep them alive until they develop an understanding and know who loves them. Then he likened the baby/toddler stage of spiritual growth to the young christian that runs around in complete freedom eating everything off the floor, coloring on the walls, and nearly falling down the stairs as they are learning to walk - so the loving parents put up a baby gate, cover the outlets, put a lock on the medicine cabinet. Why? Because they want to oppress their young child with rules? with the crushing weight of the law? Take away all the freedom they used to have? How awful, right? but it was a pretty funny analogy - and when they child has reached understanding they develop more responsibility and eventually grow to be a spiritual adult who can encourage others on the path. I am honestly loving this topic - I am using it to introduce some new stuff to my husband - so thanks for putting it out there - I am not much of a writer - but more of a responder. I hope you can find the lessons on your player - the gist I got from it was - Paul was the guy that was trying to get the gentiles on board - but also trying to steer them away from the religious systems of the day (sadducees, pharisees, gnostics, etc) you can not pick a college major when you are in preschool - at the same time - he expected they would grow up spiritually - but we still have a nation of spiritual babies. very sad indeed.


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