fiberaddict | Still rainin'....

it paused during the Cowboy's game yesterday, and stayed clear for about 1.5 hours afterwards. Just long enough for Sweet Geek to dig the last 3 holes for the barn. Then it hit again. It's weird - I was watching the weather channel yesterday, and it LOOKS like hurricane-rain...only, we've had NO hurricane. :shrug: Just reporting...

4 repeats to go on the sock! :huzzah:

Now..a question that I honestly want an answer to - if there are any Jews in the audience, please feel free to educate me. I understand the commandment: Honor the Sabbath and keep it Holy. I also understand the whole "do no work" part....but.....

OK. Some orthodox Jews do NOT flip a light switch on the Sabbath, because it's "work". I...can't think like that, but OK. I get that. However, what do you do with your animals on the Sabbath? I mean, if turning a light switch on is "work", so is feeding your dog, right?

Well....you can't NOT feed a horse for 24 hours, or you're setting yourself up for a nice case of colic. (You also can NOT "free feed" them - same thing, or laminitus (spelling...it sucketh)/founder can/probably will occur). You can't NOT milk your dairy animal - not only will you be losing production, you will also cause harm to the udder (and possibly - in a worse-case scenario - Death of the animal). Chickens don't stop laying eggs and eating/drinking on the Sabbath - do you just refuse to top off the feeders and waterers or collect eggs (you'll lose some - the hens'll peck the eggs, learn they taste good, and you have a major problem on your hands)? You can't NOT drop hay/feed to cows/goats - their rumens HAVE to be kept busy, or they could die.

I mean...I'm trying to understand this. I don't get the whole "I can't watch TV on the Sabbath because turning on the TV is "work" or (and this is what brought this up) "I can't turn on a crockpot at the start of the Sabbath because that is "work", so I need receipes for long-time cooking". :scratches head: By this thinking, you can't take a bath on the Sabbath, because turing on the water would be "work", you can't pour yourself water from the 'fridge/sink, because, again, turning the handle would be "work" (I'm not be snarky here - it just stands to reason to me that if flipping a light switch is "work", then so is turning on a water faucet (which..by the way - how would you put out a fire, should one threaten your property? That would be work....))

I get that you don't want to use your horse/donkey/ox for plowing on the Sabbath - that's definatly work. What about riding? My horses are "lawn ornaments"/"grass maggots"/loafers that don't do ANYTHING except grace me with their presence most of the time. Would a slow, leisurely trail ride be considered "work"?

Again, not trying to be snarky, I'm just wanting to understand. Any info would be appreciated!

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I don't know a lot of the rules... but I lived with a Jewish family for five years, and picked up a bunch of little things. One of my friends told me that the light switch issue was actually related to a prohibition against kindling a fire - the same reason that the slow-baking things could be simmered for hours, but the fire had to be lit before sundown on Friday. She said that flipping a light switch often makes a small spark when the contact connects, and that was considered "kindling a fire."

Don't know what to tell you about the animal issues - we didn't have anything but cats and dogs, and they got fed.

Judaism isn't much of a "this way or no way" religion. Life and death is a valid out for anything, so if your house is burning, you can put it out. This is what the Mishnah is all about. Someone comes along with a new situation and wants to know the rules, so the rabbis and the ravs all debate, based on past precedent and extrapolation, and come up with an answer. Someone asked if lobster was kosher, and after due consideration it was pronounced to be trayf as it had a split or cloven "hoof". When phones were invented, the had to decide on the rules for that. But basically, beyond the basic rules (10 cmdmts) ( and we have different ones than christians) its common sense. Also, we don't stone people for breaking the rules anymore ;-).

Actually, it's the same 10 I have- the catholic church removed the 1st one because they didn't want to be related to the Jews. (Stupid..but whatever). Also, there's 613 commandments in Lev. - most of which, again, the church threw out.

And, actually, if you read Torah, yeah - Judaism IS "this way or no way". God SAYS do this.....or else. It's woven throughout the entire TaNaKh - in fact, the book of Joshua is a good example of "Torah in action".

Thanks for the input - even if you did mention the Mishanh. :grin: I haven't gotten into the Talmud, because Torah doesn't mention "Oral Tradition".

:hmmm: I may have another post coming up......:lol:

Yes, you do feed and milk animals, it falls under not causing animals pain, but I believe that you're supposed to do any special preparations, such as making a mash, ahead of time. You do not collect eggs, since not collecting them isn't painful. I'm aware of a Jewish goatherd who allows the animals to consume the milk themselves so as to not derive any benefit or pleasure from it. Riding your horses on Sabbath would be wrong. Not because it would be work for you, but because it is work for the horses and animals have the right to rest on the Sabbath. I heard a Rabbi talking about not asking a dog to fetch slippers on the Sabbath, so I guess even asking a dog to perform tricks would be considered work and thus not allowed.

I should add the caveat that I'm not Jewish, but I am nosy and we have a few Jewish ladies who attend the Tuesday knitting group at the LYS :) An interesting tidbit that I found out, Jewish people are not supposed to have their animals neutered, it falls under the don't cause an animal pain clause again. However, there is no law against their owning a neutered animal, so it's okay for them to adopt or purchase one that is already neutered if that's what they want. I really wanted to ask if it was okay if the Rabbi neutered the animals for them, but didn't feel it proper so I kept my mouth shut. They do seem to spend quite a bit of time wielding knives though so maybe...shutting up now :)

Right - not collecting eggs isn't painful, but it can start a cycle of egg-eating in your hens that will cause you problems later (they will eat ONLY eggs, and not the laying pellets, which will cut their egg production; it will cause flimsy shells - which CAN cause harm, since they can break in the "production line", so to speak, and cause injury/death. So...I can see this one both ways.

Allowing goats/sheep to "self-milk" - which is what I think you mean by the shephard letting his goats drink the milk - is...well, it's not healthy for the goats. Again, loss of production for you, the consumer, but also - let me back up a minute.

Goats carry a couple of diseases that are passed on via the milk - CAE (sort of goat AIDS) and CL (not really sure how to explain that one, but it's nasty). So far, no one has *proven* that it will pass to humans, but it *does* pass thru milk to the kids/older goats that drink it. It's why most knowledgable (and - that's not really the right word here) shephards will be on hand at each birth and remove the kids before they stand up to nurse. You hand-milk the doe, heat-treat the colostrum (or feed colostrum from a proven clean doe), and bottle feed from then on. (Usually with bottled cow's milk - otherwise, you pastuerize the goats milk before giving it to the kids).

Thanks for the info, though - I'm still contemplating a part 2, but don't know if I'll have time.

Well, I would think that if you had health concerns over feeding the goats milk than there would be other ways of disposing of it, feeding it to them seems to be the way that particular goat owner chooses to handle it. With the chickens I would assume that any bird that became an egg eater would then be slated for the table.
I did ask about the light switch but forgot to post the answer (that's what I get for posting so late at night LOL) They told me that it's not because turning on the switch is work but because it can create a spark, and you're not supposed to kindle a fire during Sabbath.
Another interesting tidbit I discovered, Giraffe was approved as a food animal in 2008.

Umm...do giraffe have cloven hooves AND chew the cud? 'Cause if not, they're NOT food, according to the Torah.

I need to dig a bit, but I think the verse actually says "Don't gather wood *to* kindle a fire", NOT "don't kindle a fire" - but I might be mis-remembering. That's on my list of things to look up. :grin:

Giraffes do have cloven hooves, they do chew a cud, and their milk curdles, as was discovered by extracting milk during an exam on a lactating mother. Apparently the milk curdling is also an important bit and was the deciding factor? I googled it and found an article, but don't have it handy, sorry.

Cool bit about the hooves - I didn't know that!

Re: milk curdling...that's not mentioned in the Torah, so that shouldn't be a deciding factor.

Still rainin'....

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Shabbat restrictions

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